Wherever the human organism gets into a certain kind of extreme, it starts an oscillating
 process going, just as it does in sexual orgasm.
 And that oscillating process will inspire in others an emotion which they cannot identify
 either as disgust or as lust.
 They don't know quite what it is.
 All those extreme situations, terror and as we shall see more, response to pain, have
 an orgiastic quality.
 And they are therefore embarrassing because they conflict with our image of ourselves
 as in control, composed, deported.
 That's in the sense of deportment.
 But it would be shameful, in a way, you might not want to look at your own face in a state
 of complete sexual rapture.
 As a matter of fact, if you saw a photograph of your face, you wouldn't be able to tell
 whether you were in pleasure or in pain.
 It might be either.
 Because then you see what has happened is that a tide, a vibration, a pulsation has
 taken over the whole being.
 So that you are, as it were, in the possession of a god.
 And that's something taboo.
 So we begin here to move into a very difficult area.
 Because a lot of people were beginning to say this conversation is getting out of line
 because we are moving into what are normally called perverse experiences.
 And the two critical forms of perverse experience are sadism and masochism.
 Where there is the association of pain and ecstasy, in sadism the confusion of another
 person's suffering with that person's sexual orgasm.
 In masochism the identification, or if you want to say confusion, of your own suffering
 with sexual orgasm.
 Now we say well that's pathological, that's absurd.
 But it exists.
 People do it all the time, both ways, and sometimes both together.
 And although this is generally put under the heading of pathology, the fact remains that
 we can still learn something from it.
 There's an important principle in there, somehow, somewhere.
 And perhaps in people who are sadists and masochists, the phenomenon is somehow out
 of hand because they don't understand the principle.
 Now do you realize many sadists want nothing more than that their victim should enjoy the
 pain.
 The combination sadist and masochist is perfect.
 And many sadists would be quite reluctant if the victim really didn't like participating
 in this at all.
 And so there's the joke of the masochist asking the sadist to beat him and he says,
 "I won't."
 But what happens here is that pain and the attendant convulsive behavior of the organism
 is associated with the erotic.
 A different value is given to the same symptoms as, say, it is common in France to get a young
 woman really aroused, you know, and she will say, "Kill me, kill me, kill me!"
 As if to go as far as you can in throwing yourself away to somebody else.
 Do anything you want to.
 And in that abandon, you see, there is the possibility that this, an undulation of feeling,
 which is total orgiastic feeling, may take over.
 And in that feeling, you see, you are one with what is happening completely.
 And that's what everybody, as it were, finally aspires to.
 So therefore, the masochist in particular is a person who has learned throughout life
 to defend himself against pain by eroticizing pain.
 Now do you understand how, therefore, different valuations can be put on one and the same
 vibration?
 .
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